Discussion NSR Rally: Renault Clio R3 vs Abarth S2000

Home Forums Club Races Racing Calendar, Classes & Regulations Discussion NSR Rally: Renault Clio R3 vs Abarth S2000

This topic contains 31 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by BarkingSpyder BarkingSpyder 1 month, 1 week ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 32 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #12072
    chapracer65
    chapracer65
    Participant

    I have not run a rally car so I have no experience in what works and what does not.  I have purchased the 1164 Abarth S2000 which came with a long can anglewinder.  From Shawn’s comments the greater torque of the long can may be difficult to control, as has been the case on the big track.  If that is the case then the long can could be disadvantaged.  At this point, without testing of the various configurations, guessing what setup will work best would seem to be a crapshoot.  Considering that at least three of the cars that members have purchased have the long can (including myself), I would be in favor of allowing the long can.  After this series, with more test and racing data, decisions about allowable motor configurations could be changed for future rally series.

    #12073
    Radial TA
    Radial TA
    Participant

    I vote to run NSR motors, any long or short can, any configuration, with changes allowed during the long series.

    My Fiat serial number 1164 has a swinging guide arm without any hold down screw, and axle grub screw holes but not grub screws.  I’m ordering the accessory kit with those parts and springs for the guide arm (I guess).

    #12098
    porsche917
    porsche917
    Moderator

    I am good with opening the rules up more and running any motor style and in any configuration.  The point of having just one option is one of cost.  If we open it up and someone is winning wiht a different option then everyone goes out and spends more money to make their car as identical to the winners as possible.  I think with such a new track and having no defined perfect set up it would be better to spend time driving and less on ordering.

    Marty

    Straight roads are for fast cars, turns are for fast drivers.  Colin McRae

    #12100
    Radial TA
    Radial TA
    Participant

    Our new Fiats have the triangular swing arm for the guide.  It would be a big help if a swing arm rally expert posted a demo for setting up the arm travel for our track.  The car came without an arm locking screw and axle grub screws, but NSR sells a parts kit with 4 different length screws, 4 axle grub screws and 2 springs.  I ordered the kit and should have it this week.

    #12174
    BarkingSpyder
    BarkingSpyder
    Participant

    RULES
    As of the 4/14 club meeting the rules have been finalized. NSR motors are required, but both short and long cans are allowed, recommended RPM is between 21k to 30k, with high torque (180 to 350gm-cm). Voltage regulation will be key to you picking the right motor and gear combination.
    NSR tires are mandatory, be careful of splitting when gluing tires.
    If you want to run the OEM chassis, pod, motor – that is fine – use the parts that you can Find, Afford and that work well for you. This is still an experimental series to help flesh out what possible combinations perform well. Obviously speed is important but as we saw in 2017 control and handling are more important. A certain amount of tire drift is desired for the tight corners; high torque motors ran at low RPM can be a good combination. Realize that max torque actually occurs at low voltage levels; it drops off as voltage and RPMs increase.
    David, Shawn, Stephen and Marty all produced some fantastic speeds in last years final races so we will be interested to see what architectures they use.

    PRACTICE
    I will write up instructions on how to open and setup the Rally track for practice. Official practice dates are in the Google Calendar – I will summarize them in the forum in a new post.

    ... Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar! Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime... Rush - Red Barchetta

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by BarkingSpyder BarkingSpyder.
    #12176
    BarkingSpyder
    BarkingSpyder
    Participant

    CARS
    FIAT PUNTO: NSR1164AW Fiat Abarth S2000 Rally Vinho Madeir $107 NSR1043 (AW or IL WhiteKit) $109
    Hard to Find: NSR1057, 1040, 1030
    Clio-R3: NSR1016 $90 //others Hard to Find: NSR1045 (available as AW, IL, SW) NSR1014, 1015, 1020, 1029
    Clio-Cup: NSR1009 $90 NSR1035 $90 //others Hard to Find: NSR1011, 1012, 1013, 1019 1026 1025 1027
    NSR0009AW Renault Clio Cup “Piet Mondrian” Livery $87.00 /Triangle pod-Short can-Anglewinder
    NSR0009SW Renault Clio Cup “Piet Mondrian” Livery $87.00 /Triangle pod-Short can-Sidewinder

    PARTS LIST FOR REFERENCE
    (reco)NSR1239 Hardware Kit (springs, screws) for Ride Height Adjustment Drop Arm Chassis Cars $4.00
    NSR1238 Basic Screw Kit for ride Height Adjustment Drop Arm Chassis Cars $2.70

    NSR4809 M3 Setscrews 1.5mm Hex for 3mm Axle Applications $3.00
    NSR4842 Long-shaft Rally racing guide/ needs to be trimmed to 7mm long
    NSR4841 Low profile racing guide/ needs to be trimmed to 7mm long
    WHEEL Inserts: NSR5430-Black/ 5429-Blue/ 5432-Silver/ 5431-White/ 5428-Red

    NSR4836 METRIC BODY SCREW Smooth shank (10pcs) $5.00
    (reco) NSR1234 GUIDE DROP ARM 64mm XHARD VIOLET/RED $6.70
    NSR1254 EVO Inline Triangular EXTRAHARD Red Long Can Motor Mount $9.50
    NSR1259 EVO Anglewinder Triangular EXTRAHARD Red Long Can Motor Mount $9.50
    NSR1264 EVO Sidewinder Triangular XHARD Red Short Can Motor Mount $9.50
    (reco) NSR1484 Fiat Punto 2000/ Clio EVO Chassis (triangle pod) EXTRAHARD GREEN $15.00
    (alternative) NSR1438 Fiat Punto 2000/ Clio EVO Chassis (triangle pod) HARD WHITE $9.40
    NSR1202 Plastic Cups for Triangular Motor Support x10 $7.50
    (alternative) NSR1205 Plastic Cups for Classic NSR1249 Mosler EVO 3 Motor Support x10 $7.50
    (reco) NSR5206 Supergrip 19 x 10mm REAR Rally Tires (x4) $9.00
    (alternative) NSR5207 Ultragrip 19 x 10 REAR Rally Tires (x4) $9.00
    (reco) NSR5226, 5201 Zero Grip 17 x 8mm FRONT Tires $9.00
    NSR5003 FRONT 17 x 8mm ultra light (solid nib) aluminum wheels $13.00 ** can also be used for rear
    NSR5004 REAR 17 x 10mm Air System aluminum wheels $13.00

    (OEM Motor) NSR3023 KING EVO 3 Balanced Motor 21,400 RPM 350 g-cm Torque Magnetic Effect $17
    ….. (alternatives)
    NSR3017 KING EVO Motor 21,400 RPM 320 g-cm Torque Magnetic Effect
    NSR3022 KING EVO 2 Balanced Motor 21,400 RPM 322 g-cm Torque Magnetic Effect
    NSR3026 KING EVO Balanced Motor 25,000 RPM 350 g-cm Torque Magnetic Effect
    NSR3027 KING EVO Balanced Motor 30,000 RPM 365 g-cm Torque Magnetic Effect
    NSR3002 SHARK standard Mabuchi Short-can 30,000 RPM 210 g-cm Torque
    NSR3003 SHARK Balanced standard Short-can 25,000 RPM 176 g-cm Torque
    NSR3001 SHARK standard Mabuchi Short-can 22,400 RPM 168 g-cm Torque
    NSR3004 SHARK Balanced standard Short-can 20,000 RPM 164 g-cm Torque

    ... Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar! Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime... Rush - Red Barchetta

    #12179
    BarkingSpyder
    BarkingSpyder
    Participant

    NSR RALLY PRACTICE DATES
    May 24, 26
    June 6, 30
    July 7, 12
    Race #1 = July 14

    Practice dates for mid-Jul, Aug, Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec are TBD. Generally the weekend before the next Rally race will be a practice, after the quarter race (e.g. ScaleAuto then Carrera).

    — The rally track will be opened and practice software started. This will be either on “dark” non-racing weekends, or after another race.
    — When rally practice is scheduled for a Saturday, the immediately preceding Thurs can also be used as a practice night. Naturally we will have to work with Rudy to clear the top of the Ark.
    — Don’t break the keys for the top, and if a lock gets loose try and tighten its lock-nut.
    The ‘gold’ key is for the timing PC cabinet. There are two silver keys-one opens the top locks the other opens the direction switch door, (they may be labeled backwards on the dog-tag).

    ... Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar! Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime... Rush - Red Barchetta

    #12296
    Radial TA
    Radial TA
    Participant

    Will we have the manpower available Thursday May 24 and Saturday May 26 topen the Talley track.  Let’s get a head count.

    #12297
    BarkingSpyder
    BarkingSpyder
    Participant

    All we need is two people to safely remove the cover panels. As per Marty’s demonstration earlier this year, please do not man-handle the locks; just like a car and woman some gentle turns will work much better than too much force. Carefully test which key opens the top locks (the dog tag notes may be backwards!) Only one key is needed for the top. The other key is for the computer door and the driver’s station.
    ** This is an excellent opportunity for *more* racers to become comfortable in setting up the Rally track. Thurs 5/24 I will try and leave work early enough to be there by 6:30p. But do not wait for me – call me in-route (512-468-1376) if you experience any problems and I will talk you through it. On Saturday 5/26 I will open the track between 12-1p until at least 4pm.
    The extension cord is under the Ark, fish it out with a grabber or a broom, and plug into the power strip below Russ’ pit area. Use a grabber to get down the Swifters and dust the track Gently so the tape is not pulled up. Press any lifing tape down carefully, smoothing it in One direction (otherwise you will wrinkle and may rip it). Time and heat may have allowed some of the tape to lose adhesion. If any parts are significantly lifted or ripped please do Not use the rack-we will notify Marty so he can repair ASAP.
    Carefully pull out the power supply out just enough to reach the voltage control knob.
    Carefully set the computer on a chair next to the Ark. Be careful of the cord for the speakers so you don’t break the plug. Carefully make sure the power plug is in all the way and make sure the cords are Not in a Spaghetti mess. The computer may just be “sleeping” and should Not need to be powered On or reset.
    However it has been a while since the cord was plugged in so its battery may be discharged. If so – give it 10 minutes to get the battery to a decent level then hard start the computer with the power switch. (we should start plugging in the cord every Thurs or Sat to keep the PC charged.)
    Click on the SC Timer software if it is not already running (it should be). Re-set for a new 40-lap heat. During practice pause SC Timer if you pull off before 40; otherwise start a new heat between each practice round.

    ... Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar! Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime... Rush - Red Barchetta

    #12329
    BarkingSpyder
    BarkingSpyder
    Participant

    RALLY PRACTICE NOTES
    Marty posted some impressive 6.9s so we have a goal to work towards! John and Randy posted at least some 7.1s and a few 7.0s? I got into the 7.2s after dropping to the 8-9volt range.
    The long-cans are as expected, very hot at any voltage above 10v and demand lots of finesse on the trigger to prevent hopping from the NSR Supergrips (which seem to have good drift in the corners) and flying (literally) in the straight. You may want to experiment with short cans (Shark-20, -22) if you have the pods for them. The square pods (for short-cans) from some of the stock CLIOs may be on par with the triangle pods since handling at low speed is paramount in this series.
    The stock guide does not seem to need any trimming. Please report your experience with using the drop-arm “sprung”, or in “fixed” mode (screwed down). Experimenting with front wheel flying height is also needed to prevent both pop-out and excessive wear of the tape.
    These cars are super smooth much of the time and don’t seem to need the weight that last years rally platform seemed to favor.
    The tape looks in good shape – no lifts or (new) rips were obvious.
    ** Be very careful with the locks on Cover-1, they are tight and finicky. The key info on the dog-tag is Reverse of reality.
    The tarp was put onto the cover to prevent the debris we found on Thurs that had fallen through the joints where the cover-panels meet. I am leaving the extension cord plugged in as often as possible to keep the laptop charged. The SC Timer is being cleared and closed and Windows shut down to reduce battery drainage and more importantly cut down heat from the CPU running.

    ... Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar! Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime... Rush - Red Barchetta

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by BarkingSpyder BarkingSpyder.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by BarkingSpyder BarkingSpyder.
    #12332
    porsche917
    porsche917
    Moderator

    Mark,

    Running a 6.9 is not that impressive when you look at the times that were run in the last rally series.  One lap at 6.9 seconds does not a five minute heat make.  There is much more to it than just one lap that is really not that impressive.  If it were a 6.5 or 6.6 that would be a different thing.

    #12333
    Radial TA
    Radial TA
    Participant

    My Fiat angle winder is far from ready.  I need less volts, better balance to whip around the tight turns, maybe a short trim on the guide.  Had the sensitivity on one just to stay in or near the slot.  Not fun.  Broke another chunk of chin spoiler on a wooden post.  Sheeesh!

    #12336
    BarkingSpyder
    BarkingSpyder
    Participant

    Marty-I was only recognizing that out of the people who practiced last week that you -as expected- set the *temporary* bar for us to reach – seeing how it was the first official practice with a new platform, largely untested en masse on our track. You are correct that compared to your 6.702 and many other peoples 6.8s that 6.9 is pedestrian. I am looking forward to your potential 6.5s- that will be exciting!

    ... Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar! Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime... Rush - Red Barchetta

    #12350
    BarkingSpyder
    BarkingSpyder
    Participant

    NSR RALLY PRACTICE
    This Sat (6/16) after Thunderslot #6 //Road track will most likely be used for ScaleAuto test-and-tune.
    Next week (6/23) after ScaleAuto #1 //I need someone to open the ARK, start the PC, SCTimer; I will be in Florida racing alligators and mullet
    6/30 – Noon – 4-ish
    ********
    POWER TUNING
    These cars are not as Top-heavy as the 2017 WRCs, so they corner well without as much weight. But – the lighter weight not only (+) makes them drift well with the SuperGrips, it (-) makes them very sensitive to the higher torque motors (e.g. hopping during acceleration out of a turn).
    Experimentation with -lower voltages, or -lower RPM/lower torque motors may be key (Shark-20s from the 917 series or a King-17 may be worth testing).

    GUIDE
    The Rally specific guides have a long shaft, so the motor-wires can act like a weak spring in addition to a sprung drop-arm. If you don’t like the slop from the longer shaft, the out-of-the-box pop-in and screw-in – short-shaft- guides (from our past NSR series) seem to be the same dimensions. Please report on your experiences with the guides and drop-arms.

    ... Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar! Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime... Rush - Red Barchetta

    #12353
    BarkingSpyder
    BarkingSpyder
    Participant

    RALLY DROP ARMS
    If you are using the OEM CLIO-R small-can chassis, with a rectangular pod, obviously you dont have a triangular pod or drop arm. Use any NSR ‘regular’ short-shaft guide (pop-in or screw-on) and up to a 1mm spacer to take out the rocking/slop. Good luck on adjusting axle height : (

    Below are the major options for setup of the NSR drop arms.
    1. FIXED
    If you have an OEM or ugrade chassis with triangular pod and drop-arm, again use a short-shaft guide. Use an NSR small machine screw (the body and pod screws are too short) without the spring, to keep the drop-arm firm. Be careful to Not over-tighten and hence warp the the arm’s nose.

    2. SPRUNG
    The drop-arm machine screw binds on the on bridge over the guide. To reduce this friction, in the bridge very carefully widen the oblong hole where the arm fixing screw goes through. Widen at the back (towards the motor) of the hole with an Exacto or a small bit in a pin vise. Be slow and careful, there is not much meat in that area.
    Using the long machine screw from the front axle adjusting “kit” that Randy has identified; place a spring over the screw and set the spring in the arms cup around the nut area for the screw. Do not glue the spring in – you can accidently glue the arm screw or bind the spring.
    You can use the long-shaft rally guide, which will give you more spring from the motor wires. If the slop of the long shaft causes you handling problems, you can use the short-shafts

    3. FLOP
    As illustrated in the NSR catalog, the drop arm can be free and un-sprung, using the motor wires as a spring. This requires slightly longer than normal amount of motor wire past the front axle. Generally this configuration is shown with the long-shaft rally guide, letting it float in the guide-boss/tongue, without a spring on either the drop-arm or the shaft (dont put a spring on the shaft). There is nothing prohibiting you from using any of the short-shaft guides.

    ** I personally do not have any testing results on how any of the above configurations perform relative to the others. Any comments from testing are welcome!

    ... Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar! Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime... Rush - Red Barchetta

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 32 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.